Talk:Lord of the Western Lands

Canonicity
This article is fanon. Because this misconception is so widespread, it could deserve its own page to acknowledge that it is widely-used, but it should not be presented as though it has any backing from the anime or manga. 98.253.23.123 02:48, July 14, 2012 (UTC)Patches
 * The article is not fanon; it is clearly stated in the anime that the Inu no Taisho was the "Lord of the Western Lands." As his successor, Lord Sesshōmaru also assumes that title. Also, please start a discussion before reinstating your edit, not after. Please leave any and all pages/content concerning this subject as they are until after the conflict has been resolved. Thank you.-- Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 03:07, July 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Please cite the episode where the exact term "Lord of the Western Lands" was used at all, and please cite the episode or chapter where it was stated that Sesshoumaru inherited anything other than Tenseiga from his father.
 * In chapter 499, when Sesshomaru discovers that his father's intention was to have Tetsusaiga re-absorb Tenseiga, he thinks, "This means my father intended to leave me with nothing." This implies that Tenseiga is his only inheritance, as when Sesshomaru speaks of his inheritance throughout the series, it is only Tenseiga and nothing else. No land, no castle, no servants, no army.
 * In an interview with Rumiko Takahashi in 2002, when someone asked her where Sesshomaru lived, she replied "巣があるのか？　そんな感じもしない. 私が思うに、目的地もしくはトラブル発生地点、以外は、すべて帰る処なんでしょう. いつか、物語の中で殺生丸の巣が出てくる…なんてことは、今の所なさそうです. " This translates as "Does he have a home? I don't get that feeling. What I'm thinking is that he's probably heading to wherever trouble is brewing. Someday, Sesshomaru's home might appear in the story... but really now's not the time."
 * The question came up because originally, whenever Sesshomaru would leave a battle, he'd say "帰るぞ邪見" ("Let's go home, Jaken"). The problem with this is that "帰る" is what's called a "set phrase" that is just what's used in a particular situation, even if it's not literally true. So while "帰る" literally means "to go home", Takahashi clarified that Sesshomaru is using the term in the figurative sense and does not have a "base of operation". Later, Takahashi switched to having him say "行くぞ" ("Let's go") to remove any of the confusion surrounding him having a home or not.
 * The closest thing to "Lord of the Western Lands" that ever appears in any format in the series is the description of Sesshomaru's father as being "西国を根城にした化け犬" ("The phantom dog who made the Western Lands his domain"). While this could conceivably be shorthanded into English as "Lord of the Western Lands", such a title in and of itself does not appear in any canon material.
 * So, to break apart the article as it originally stood piece by piece:
 * Lord of the Western Lands is the title conferred onto daiyōkai who have taken up the task of administering and protecting the Lands of the West.
 * As shown above, this is patently false. There is no actual title of "Lord of the Western Lands". Sesshomaru's father was only ever known as Inu no Taishou, and Sesshomaru was only ever known as, well, Sesshomaru. The cat demons did once call him "Son of the Inu no Taisho". If Sesshomaru had a title himself, why not use it? The "Lord Sesshomaru" from the English translation is being misinterpreted to mean more than it does. The original term is "Sesshomaru-sama", a term that implies respect, but does not necessitate an actual position of power.
 * It is unclear just what area this encompasses.
 * This is also untrue. Though translated into English as "Western Lands", the original term, "Saigoku", is an actual ancient region of Japan, nowadays known as the Kinki Region.
 * The Inu no Taishō was the most widely known Lord of the West, though after his death, this position was assumed by his son, Sesshōmaru.
 * As discussed above, there is no title of "Lord of the West", no one was ever called "Lord of the West", and Sesshomaru most certainly did not inherit any of his father's status or holdings aside from Tenseiga.
 * I know this is probably the biggest piece of fanon in the series, so widespread that everyone just assumes it to be true. Even I did when I first got into the series, until I caught up on the episodes and discovered it to have never been mentioned once. If I have somehow missed something, and the title of "Lord of the West" appears anywhere in any official material, please let me know. --Fast Moon (talk) 13:31, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Well, to be clear, no one here is suggesting that Sesshōmaru has a castle or an army, the fan community aside. It is clear that, in his capacity as a daiyōkai, the Inu no Taishō had the power and prestige to command several servants, among whom are Myōga, Tōtōsai, Saya, etc. Considering his power and the fact that he "ruled" over a province, it is natural that he be considered a lord. And considering that the "Western Province" or "Western Lands" is/are what he protected, it is also natural to dub him the "Lord of the Western Lands/Province." Which is essentially what we have done. While it is debatable whether or not Sesshōmaru actually inherited or assumed that position after the Inu no Taishō's death, what is indisputable is that Sesshōmaru's objective as far as we know for the entire series was "supreme conquest" and the power that would help him achieve that. He certainly had pretense for being lord of much more than just the western province. But what he actually did do on at least two occasions was to protect his father's territory from foreign invasion. It was simply assumed that this went to Sesshōmaru since primo geniture is usually recognized in such cases, especially since Sesshōmaru is a full demon and the eldest brother, and clearly more powerful than Inuyasha.-- Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 15:57, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand that the Inu no Taishou could conceivably be dubbed such a thing. The issue is that he was not in any canon material. The main problem with this article is that it asserts that "Lord of the Western Lands is the title conferred onto daiyōkai who have taken up the task of administering and protecting the Lands of the West." The problem with this is that the title is conferred by the fandom, thus by definition rendering it fanon. This article is like saying "Miroku carries the title of Bearer of the Wind Tunnel." No one's arguing whether or not he inherited the Wind Tunnel from his father. I'm arguing that, until anyone actually refers to him as such, it's disingenuous to assert that such a title exists.--Fast Moon (talk) 02:58, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking back on it, I agree that the way it is phrased makes it seem like a title that came from canon material. However, just because it is never expressly stated as such in the manga or anime does not mean that we cannot establish such a position in an unofficial context. You can refer to someone as "Leader of Country X" even though "Leader" is not their official title. I will adjust the article's content to reflect what I can surmise to be the consensus of this discussion.-- Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 04:15, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * I do agree this update is somewhat more reflective of canon, yes, and I do appreciate that you're willing to compromise. However, as it stands now, I still question the merit of even having this article at all. Having a sentence on the Inu no Taishou's main article that he made the Western Country his domain seems sufficient to cover this. For instance, the article for Sango and Kohaku's father calls him "The chieftain of Yōkai Taijiya Village", however "Chieftan of Yokai Taijiya Village" does not have its own article stating that it was the position held by Sango's father, and then after his death, it can be assumed it was conferred on to Sango herself. Such an article would both be redundant and basing half its content on assumption, which is what I believe this article to be. I can accept the article as it is now, but in my ideal world, it wouldn't exist at all. :P --Fast Moon (talk) 12:43, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * True, though, as a position, the Chieftain of the Yokai Taijiya Village has a much smaller impact on the plot of the series than the Inu no Taishō does in his capacity as the ruler of the Western Province.-- Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 15:00, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Fast Moon. Having a page about a title that was held by only one person is a bit redundant. It would better belong on Inu no Taishō's page, especially considering there is no in-source reference to the title as being one that was inherited or taken up, let alone that it is a title that can only be taken up by daiyōkai, and therefore only Sesshōmaru. (I add that last part because I think Inuyasha served as more of a protector than Sesshōmaru ever did.)

Also, with the article in its current state, it doesn't really talk about anything. It starts out talking about what Inu no Taishō did in life, but then goes on to talk about how Sesshōmaru only did one or two of those things, but not necessarily because he held the position. So the article doesn't really end up talking about the title, which, as Fast Moon pointed out, isn't really a title in the sense that it is "a position that exists to be held by one person or another in order to designate status or ensure the fulfillment of any particular duties". Damaijin (talk) 22:12, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not even so much that it's redundant, but that the entire article is pure speculation surrounding a fan-made title. We don't even know that the Inu no Taishō or Sesshōmaru were "Lord" of anything. All the title of "Inu no Taishō" explicitly implies was that he was the Dog family/clan leader. The first movie does give Myōga a line about how he "conquered the Western Province", which is the only explicit instance we get of a mention of him conquering/ruling anything (however due to that movie's inability to mesh with series continuity, I don't generally consider it a reference for anything external to itself). However, the concept of "Lord of the West" is never even implied in the series in any format. Fast Moon (talk) 22:48, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

This issue is long since closed and the article will never be removed or changed as far as how we treat it with regards to canon. Honestly, I don't appreciate the way you guys go around conspiritorially starting fires over nothing. I think your energy would be better spent actually improving articles, rather than engaging in pointless discussions to stoke controversy.--Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 22:59, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * But that's the entire point. We are trying to improve articles by correcting them for accuracy. I am providing evidence from official sources, cultural and language background, and my ten year's experience with translating the series in order to correct erroneous information. I would be happy to improve articles if only you'd let me, rather than stubbornly insisting the issue is closed and that the article is not allowed to be fixed. I am desperate to provide this site some semblance of integrity and credibility, and I only wish I didn't have to constantly butt horns with you in order to do so. Fast Moon (talk) 00:23, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't restart this discussion because Fast Moon and I "bestest buds" or start trouble or just to irritate the crap out of you. I restarted it because I think she's right. Her argument was based on in-source references and info obtained from the V.o.G. I'd also like to say that the amount of information she provided was just icing on the cake. All she needed to do to make her point was demand the in-source references. Without them, this topic has no factual basis, which means it has no right to exist in an encyclopedia--except maybe to explain why it shouldn't. Damaijin (talk) 01:11, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * We have serious issues on this site, ranging from article content to style and fromatting issues. Our episode and chapter pages are poorly formatted or nonexistant in many cases and lack consistancy, we have an overabudance of unlicensed images, various stub articles, red links, etc. I don't even think this article's canon status is an issue, but even if it was, it would rank at the bottom of my list. Damaijin has many good contributions, but Fast Moon has devoted most of her efforts on this site to discussing irrelevant issues. If you really rate yourself so highly on your translation skills, translate (no pun intended) your energies in that vein into a way that will actually yield useful results. Persisting in questioning the authenticity and/or canonicity of articles or their names despite an obvious lack of agreement or consensus is only a distraction from real issues that actually pose a problem to the quality of the site.--Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 01:38, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * If this article's canonicity is so low-priority to you, then just let me fix it and move on to more important things. I agree, there are a lot of other things I could be fixing, and I'm tired of having to waste time making multi-page arguments trying to justify every single last edit I make, which are then wholly ignored and my edits immediately reverted. My main purpose for joining this site was to clean up the fanon, speculation, misinterpretations, cultural differences, and terms lost in translation, which I feel I'm well-qualified to do. I believe putting my skills to work in an area that would benefit from them "translates" very well. Fast Moon (talk) 02:39, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * But as I have already communicated several times to you, from the view of the administration of this site, the canonicity of this article is not in question. So the one who should move on is you. Further attempts to change this page to reflect your views, rather than the official policy of this site, will be considered disruptive, and per our blocking policy, you may be subject to a block. Trying to edit the article in such a way, even in the midst of me telling you not to, is neither the maturest nor the wisest thing for you to have done. :/ --Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 02:49, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Please tell me how I am violating official site policy. Per the Rules page:
 * Do not make pointless articles. If you see one, put the Request for Deletion tag on it.
 * This article is pointless. It is completely redundant with information found on the respective character pages. It is also fanon, a blockable offense.
 * Do not only provide one point of view, but all relevant viewpoints as necessary.
 * I attempted to keep the article as intact as possible while inserting the relevant view that this is a fan-invented term, however, you immediately deleted any views opposed to your own.
 * Support your article with actual facts.
 * Good lord, have I. Mountains of them. You have yet to provide any other than "I don't think you're right". Seriously, cite where in the series this term comes up, and this entire argument goes away.
 * Use a reliable source.
 * I have cited the manga, anime, and Takahashi herself to back up my argument. You have cited yourself, and a vague "consensus" that apparently backs you up. Who is this consensus, and may I plead my case to them?
 * Make sure your sources are not biased.
 * Support your facts with valid sources.
 * My sources are the canon material itself. I am interpreting it wholly objectively, with no speculation or implication. I have compiled my research, cited my sources, given examples, and have attempted to be patient with you, but you do nothing but dismiss me out of hand without providing any citations in return, instead resorting to personal attacks and threats. You have undone almost every edit I've ever made to this wiki, forcing me into the talk pages to lay out the evidence and citations for my case, which you then ignore. If you would just trust that I know what I'm talking about instead of automatically assuming my edits are malicious, then there would be no problem. I am not out to get you, I'm out to make this site more factually accurate (though I'm getting the feeling you're out to get me. Please tell me I'm wrong). Fast Moon (talk) 03:36, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * All of your "facts" are circumstantial and don't actually support your view that this article is fanon. I'm not going to deign to continue this conversation anymore when you can't even maintain any semblance of maturity, accusing me of power-tripping, acting unilaterally, and talking down to you. That's obviously not the case, and if that's the sort of negative, immature attitude you bring to this wiki, I suggest you just stay off the site. If I didn't care about other people's opinions I would have just ignored you; I'm not threatening to block you because you have a different viewpoint, I'm threatening to block you because your edits are disruptive and in violation of policy, since you cannot institute edits that are in dispute unless you can reach an agreement. Don't act so self-righteous; if anyone is acting unilaterally and not caring about other people's points of view, it's you.--Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 10:41, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then what sort of evidence would you accept that this article is fanon, if the fact that it does not appear anywhere in the series - and actively contradicts things that are in the series - is not sufficient? Fast Moon (talk) 10:57, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * The title of the article may be conjectural, but the position is real enough, as it has been indicated by numerous characters the role that the Inu no Taishō played in defending the Western Provinces. Unless you can get definitive proof (i.e. a statement from Takahashi herself) that Inuyasha's father had no leadership role and was just some vigilante the issue of this article's canonicity cannot be called into question.--Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 12:32, March 26, 2013 (UTC)