Talk:Lord of the Western Lands

Canonicity
This article is fanon. Because this misconception is so widespread, it could deserve its own page to acknowledge that it is widely-used, but it should not be presented as though it has any backing from the anime or manga. 98.253.23.123 02:48, July 14, 2012 (UTC)Patches
 * The article is not fanon; it is clearly stated in the anime that the Inu no Taisho was the "Lord of the Western Lands." As his successor, Lord Sesshōmaru also assumes that title. Also, please start a discussion before reinstating your edit, not after. Please leave any and all pages/content concerning this subject as they are until after the conflict has been resolved. Thank you.-- Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 03:07, July 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Please cite the episode where the exact term "Lord of the Western Lands" was used at all, and please cite the episode or chapter where it was stated that Sesshoumaru inherited anything other than Tenseiga from his father.
 * In chapter 499, when Sesshomaru discovers that his father's intention was to have Tetsusaiga re-absorb Tenseiga, he thinks, "This means my father intended to leave me with nothing." This implies that Tenseiga is his only inheritance, as when Sesshomaru speaks of his inheritance throughout the series, it is only Tenseiga and nothing else. No land, no castle, no servants, no army.
 * In an interview with Rumiko Takahashi in 2002, when someone asked her where Sesshomaru lived, she replied "巣があるのか？　そんな感じもしない. 私が思うに、目的地もしくはトラブル発生地点、以外は、すべて帰る処なんでしょう. いつか、物語の中で殺生丸の巣が出てくる…なんてことは、今の所なさそうです. " This translates as "Does he have a home? I don't get that feeling. What I'm thinking is that he's probably heading to wherever trouble is brewing. Someday, Sesshomaru's home might appear in the story... but really now's not the time."
 * The question came up because originally, whenever Sesshomaru would leave a battle, he'd say "帰るぞ邪見" ("Let's go home, Jaken"). The problem with this is that "帰る" is what's called a "set phrase" that is just what's used in a particular situation, even if it's not literally true. So while "帰る" literally means "to go home", Takahashi clarified that Sesshomaru is using the term in the figurative sense and does not have a "base of operation". Later, Takahashi switched to having him say "行くぞ" ("Let's go") to remove any of the confusion surrounding him having a home or not.
 * The closest thing to "Lord of the Western Lands" that ever appears in any format in the series is the description of Sesshomaru's father as being "西国を根城にした化け犬" ("The phantom dog who made the Western Lands his domain"). While this could conceivably be shorthanded into English as "Lord of the Western Lands", such a title in and of itself does not appear in any canon material.
 * So, to break apart the article as it originally stood piece by piece:
 * Lord of the Western Lands is the title conferred onto daiyōkai who have taken up the task of administering and protecting the Lands of the West.
 * As shown above, this is patently false. There is no actual title of "Lord of the Western Lands". Sesshomaru's father was only ever known as Inu no Taishou, and Sesshomaru was only ever known as, well, Sesshomaru. The cat demons did once call him "Son of the Inu no Taisho". If Sesshomaru had a title himself, why not use it? The "Lord Sesshomaru" from the English translation is being misinterpreted to mean more than it does. The original term is "Sesshomaru-sama", a term that implies respect, but does not necessitate an actual position of power.
 * It is unclear just what area this encompasses.
 * This is also untrue. Though translated into English as "Western Lands", the original term, "Saigoku", is an actual ancient region of Japan, nowadays known as the Kinki Region.
 * The Inu no Taishō was the most widely known Lord of the West, though after his death, this position was assumed by his son, Sesshōmaru.
 * As discussed above, there is no title of "Lord of the West", no one was ever called "Lord of the West", and Sesshomaru most certainly did not inherit any of his father's status or holdings aside from Tenseiga.
 * I know this is probably the biggest piece of fanon in the series, so widespread that everyone just assumes it to be true. Even I did when I first got into the series, until I caught up on the episodes and discovered it to have never been mentioned once. If I have somehow missed something, and the title of "Lord of the West" appears anywhere in any official material, please let me know. --Fast Moon (talk) 13:31, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Well, to be clear, no one here is suggesting that Sesshōmaru has a castle or an army, the fan community aside. It is clear that, in his capacity as a daiyōkai, the Inu no Taishō had the power and prestige to command several servants, among whom are Myōga, Tōtōsai, Saya, etc. Considering his power and the fact that he "ruled" over a province, it is natural that he be considered a lord. And considering that the "Western Province" or "Western Lands" is/are what he protected, it is also natural to dub him the "Lord of the Western Lands/Province." Which is essentially what we have done. While it is debatable whether or not Sesshōmaru actually inherited or assumed that position after the Inu no Taishō's death, what is indisputable is that Sesshōmaru's objective as far as we know for the entire series was "supreme conquest" and the power that would help him achieve that. He certainly had pretense for being lord of much more than just the western province. But what he actually did do on at least two occasions was to protect his father's territory from foreign invasion. It was simply assumed that this went to Sesshōmaru since primo geniture is usually recognized in such cases, especially since Sesshōmaru is a full demon and the eldest brother, and clearly more powerful than Inuyasha.-- Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 15:57, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand that the Inu no Taishou could conceivably be dubbed such a thing. The issue is that he was not in any canon material. The main problem with this article is that it asserts that "Lord of the Western Lands is the title conferred onto daiyōkai who have taken up the task of administering and protecting the Lands of the West." The problem with this is that the title is conferred by the fandom, thus by definition rendering it fanon. This article is like saying "Miroku carries the title of Bearer of the Wind Tunnel." No one's arguing whether or not he inherited the Wind Tunnel from his father. I'm arguing that, until anyone actually refers to him as such, it's disingenuous to assert that such a title exists.--Fast Moon (talk) 02:58, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking back on it, I agree that the way it is phrased makes it seem like a title that came from canon material. However, just because it is never expressly stated as such in the manga or anime does not mean that we cannot establish such a position in an unofficial context. You can refer to someone as "Leader of Country X" even though "Leader" is not their official title. I will adjust the article's content to reflect what I can surmise to be the consensus of this discussion.-- Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 04:15, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * I do agree this update is somewhat more reflective of canon, yes, and I do appreciate that you're willing to compromise. However, as it stands now, I still question the merit of even having this article at all. Having a sentence on the Inu no Taishou's main article that he made the Western Country his domain seems sufficient to cover this. For instance, the article for Sango and Kohaku's father calls him "The chieftain of Yōkai Taijiya Village", however "Chieftan of Yokai Taijiya Village" does not have its own article stating that it was the position held by Sango's father, and then after his death, it can be assumed it was conferred on to Sango herself. Such an article would both be redundant and basing half its content on assumption, which is what I believe this article to be. I can accept the article as it is now, but in my ideal world, it wouldn't exist at all. :P --Fast Moon (talk) 12:43, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * True, though, as a position, the Chieftain of the Yokai Taijiya Village has a much smaller impact on the plot of the series than the Inu no Taishō does in his capacity as the ruler of the Western Province.-- Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 15:00, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Fast Moon. Having a page about a title that was held by only one person is a bit redundant. It would better belong on Inu no Taishō's page, especially considering there is no in-source reference to the title as being one that was inherited or taken up, let alone that it is a title that can only be taken up by daiyōkai, and therefore only Sesshōmaru. (I add that last part because I think Inuyasha served as more of a protector than Sesshōmaru ever did.)

Also, with the article in its current state, it doesn't really talk about anything. It starts out talking about what Inu no Taishō did in life, but then goes on to talk about how Sesshōmaru only did one or two of those things, but not necessarily because he held the position. So the article doesn't really end up talking about the title, which, as Fast Moon pointed out, isn't really a title in the sense that it is "a position that exists to be held by one person or another in order to designate status or ensure the fulfillment of any particular duties". Damaijin (talk) 22:12, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not even so much that it's redundant, but that the entire article is pure speculation surrounding a fan-made title. We don't even know that the Inu no Taishō or Sesshōmaru were "Lord" of anything. All the title of "Inu no Taishō" explicitly implies was that he was the Dog family/clan leader. The first movie does give Myōga a line about how he "conquered the Western Province", which is the only explicit instance we get of a mention of him conquering/ruling anything (however due to that movie's inability to mesh with series continuity, I don't generally consider it a reference for anything external to itself). However, the concept of "Lord of the West" is never even implied in the series in any format. Fast Moon (talk) 22:48, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

This issue is long since closed and the article will never be removed or changed as far as how we treat it with regards to canon. Honestly, I don't appreciate the way you guys go around conspiritorially starting fires over nothing. I think your energy would be better spent actually improving articles, rather than engaging in pointless discussions to stoke controversy.--Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 22:59, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * But that's the entire point. We are trying to improve articles by correcting them for accuracy. I am providing evidence from official sources, cultural and language background, and my ten year's experience with translating the series in order to correct erroneous information. I would be happy to improve articles if only you'd let me, rather than stubbornly insisting the issue is closed and that the article is not allowed to be fixed. I am desperate to provide this site some semblance of integrity and credibility, and I only wish I didn't have to constantly butt horns with you in order to do so. Fast Moon (talk) 00:23, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't restart this discussion because Fast Moon and I "bestest buds" or start trouble or just to irritate the crap out of you. I restarted it because I think she's right. Her argument was based on in-source references and info obtained from the V.o.G. I'd also like to say that the amount of information she provided was just icing on the cake. All she needed to do to make her point was demand the in-source references. Without them, this topic has no factual basis, which means it has no right to exist in an encyclopedia--except maybe to explain why it shouldn't. Damaijin (talk) 01:11, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * We have serious issues on this site, ranging from article content to style and fromatting issues. Our episode and chapter pages are poorly formatted or nonexistant in many cases and lack consistancy, we have an overabudance of unlicensed images, various stub articles, red links, etc. I don't even think this article's canon status is an issue, but even if it was, it would rank at the bottom of my list. Damaijin has many good contributions, but Fast Moon has devoted most of her efforts on this site to discussing irrelevant issues. If you really rate yourself so highly on your translation skills, translate (no pun intended) your energies in that vein into a way that will actually yield useful results. Persisting in questioning the authenticity and/or canonicity of articles or their names despite an obvious lack of agreement or consensus is only a distraction from real issues that actually pose a problem to the quality of the site.--Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 01:38, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * If this article's canonicity is so low-priority to you, then just let me fix it and move on to more important things. I agree, there are a lot of other things I could be fixing, and I'm tired of having to waste time making multi-page arguments trying to justify every single last edit I make, which are then wholly ignored and my edits immediately reverted. My main purpose for joining this site was to clean up the fanon, speculation, misinterpretations, cultural differences, and terms lost in translation, which I feel I'm well-qualified to do. I believe putting my skills to work in an area that would benefit from them "translates" very well. Fast Moon (talk) 02:39, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * But as I have already communicated several times to you, from the view of the administration of this site, the canonicity of this article is not in question. So the one who should move on is you. Further attempts to change this page to reflect your views, rather than the official policy of this site, will be considered disruptive, and per our blocking policy, you may be subject to a block. Trying to edit the article in such a way, even in the midst of me telling you not to, is neither the maturest nor the wisest thing for you to have done. :/ --Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 02:49, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Please tell me how I am violating official site policy. Per the Rules page:
 * Do not make pointless articles. If you see one, put the Request for Deletion tag on it.
 * This article is pointless. It is completely redundant with information found on the respective character pages. It is also fanon, a blockable offense.
 * Do not only provide one point of view, but all relevant viewpoints as necessary.
 * I attempted to keep the article as intact as possible while inserting the relevant view that this is a fan-invented term, however, you immediately deleted any views opposed to your own.
 * Support your article with actual facts.
 * Good lord, have I. Mountains of them. You have yet to provide any other than "I don't think you're right". Seriously, cite where in the series this term comes up, and this entire argument goes away.
 * Use a reliable source.
 * I have cited the manga, anime, and Takahashi herself to back up my argument. You have cited yourself, and a vague "consensus" that apparently backs you up. Who is this consensus, and may I plead my case to them?
 * Make sure your sources are not biased.
 * Support your facts with valid sources.
 * My sources are the canon material itself. I am interpreting it wholly objectively, with no speculation or implication. I have compiled my research, cited my sources, given examples, and have attempted to be patient with you, but you do nothing but dismiss me out of hand without providing any citations in return, instead resorting to personal attacks and threats. You have undone almost every edit I've ever made to this wiki, forcing me into the talk pages to lay out the evidence and citations for my case, which you then ignore. If you would just trust that I know what I'm talking about instead of automatically assuming my edits are malicious, then there would be no problem. I am not out to get you, I'm out to make this site more factually accurate (though I'm getting the feeling you're out to get me. Please tell me I'm wrong). Fast Moon (talk) 03:36, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * All of your "facts" are circumstantial and don't actually support your view that this article is fanon. I'm not going to deign to continue this conversation anymore when you can't even maintain any semblance of maturity, accusing me of power-tripping, acting unilaterally, and talking down to you. That's obviously not the case, and if that's the sort of negative, immature attitude you bring to this wiki, I suggest you just stay off the site. If I didn't care about other people's opinions I would have just ignored you; I'm not threatening to block you because you have a different viewpoint, I'm threatening to block you because your edits are disruptive and in violation of policy, since you cannot institute edits that are in dispute unless you can reach an agreement. Don't act so self-righteous; if anyone is acting unilaterally and not caring about other people's points of view, it's you.--Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 10:41, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then what sort of evidence would you accept that this article is fanon, if the fact that it does not appear anywhere in the series - and actively contradicts things that are in the series - is not sufficient? Fast Moon (talk) 10:57, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * The title of the article may be conjectural, but the position is real enough, as it has been indicated by numerous characters the role that the Inu no Taishō played in defending the Western Provinces. Unless you can get definitive proof (i.e. a statement from Takahashi herself) that Inuyasha's father had no leadership role and was just some vigilante the issue of this article's canonicity cannot be called into question.--Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 12:32, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why did I know that was going to be your answer? Is getting a personal statement from Takahashi herself the standard requirement of citation authenticity, or are you just making a special exception for me? You are holding me to a level of evidence that would not be possible to produce under any circumstance. In fact, why do I have to come up with a source that explicitly states that something was not in the series? By that logic we should have an article about Inuyasha's billion long-lost sisters, since they're very popular in the fandom, and there is nothing in the series explicitly stating he doesn't have one. Rather than saying, "If the series doesn't explicitly say this isn't true, then it can be assumed to be true," shouldn't the impetus of proof be "If the series doesn't explicitly say this is true, it can be assumed not to be true"? You made that exact argument when you removed the "Olfaction" power from Sesshoumaru's mother's page, stating that while it could be assumed, it's never stated, so doesn't belong there. And I applaud you for that, I think that was a legitimately good call. I'm just trying to make the same argument here.
 * Here, I'll make a deal. If you (or anyone, for that matter) can cite the chapter, episode, movie, interview, book, drama, or any other official material in which the title "Lord of the Western Lands" or its equivalent appears, or the source for the assertion that there exists some sort of official title, position, or duty that Sesshoumaru has inherited from his father, I promise I will leave this site forever and never post again, for I will have been unequivocally proven wrong. Until then, per site rules, I will continue to petition against this article as unsourced, uncited fan speculation. Fast Moon (talk) 21:45, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Suzaku, I am sorry, but she has a point. I was just a casual viewer of this series. I watched it and was never active in the "fan community" (as a matter of fact, this Wikia is about as active as I've gotten). I've seen almost the entire series and I had never heard of "The Lord of the Western Lands" until Fast Moon directed me to this article a couple days ago. There is no backing anywhere in the anime. If there had been, I would have picked up on it. She has seen the entire anime and read the entire manga. Her facts are not circumstantial. In fact, she's proven the title itself is circumstantial. Did you read all of that stuff? She did research and has provided concrete sources. If you want to prove her wrong, all you have to do is find yours. (Also, very sorry about the chick thing...) Damaijin (talk) 22:02, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

The difference here is that there is evidence to support the conjectural title. The only evidence to support the fact that Sesshōmaru's mother has superior olfaction is that Sesshōmaru has it. There's nothing to link the two. If it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a duck. Sesshōmaru's mother may look like a duck, but she hasn't quacked like one. But if the Inu no Taishō makes the Western Provinces his domain and defends it, and has his own army to do so, and has a list of servants who do his bidding, I see every indication that he is a lord with his own domain (the Western Lands). And I wouldn't make that deal because I don't want you to leave, I just want you to stop beating a dead horse. I have already admitted freely that the title of the article is conjectural, and per our earlier discussion, nothing suggests that Sesshōmaru has inherited his position, de facto or otherwise.--Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 22:08, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

If you're talking about the army from the panther deva saga, that wasn't his army. Those were just demons who took up arms to defend their home. The reason they fought for Sesshomaru later was because they were grateful to Inu no Taisho for fighting the Panther King one on one and saving them from unnecessary bloodshed. Damaijin (talk) 22:45, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why is he called the "Dog General" if he doesn't lead an army? I don't buy it.--Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 23:27, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually asked a Japanese friend about this a little bit ago, and she said that, while the title literally translates as "Dog General", it does not necessarily mean a military rank. The closest example I can think of in English is that calling someone "Sir" does not necessarily mean they're a knight, although it can. But simply pointing out that someone has been called "Sir" is not sufficient proof to say they're a knight. She said that the most you can concretely get out of "Inu no Taishou" was that he was the dog clan patriarch, but the extent of his authority beyond that is conjectural. I'd asked her if the Japanese title "Taishou" had any specific roles or duties attached to it, like the English word "General" might, and she said no. She has her preferences on how to portray him in her fanworks, but conceded that canon really doesn't give you anything concrete to go on, other than he's a dog, is powerful and famous, and lives in the West (which she explained meant the Kyoto area). There's no question that he defended the West from invaders, the question is whether he did so in any official capacity or duty, or just because he wanted to. Because the series is so vague on this, I feel like an article like this pins him down too much by asserting some kind of official, hereditary title that he held when there's no indication one way or the other that this is actually the case. Fast Moon (talk) 23:57, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * If he was just some random daiyōkai, why would he make the entire western part of Japan his home and protect it? It just doesn't add up. And since the English dub translation "Dog General" doesn't necessarily contradict the Japanese use of the term Inu no Taishō, I can't rule out its canonicity.--Suzaku 朱雀 Maze Castle 00:41, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not arguing against "Dog General". "Dog General" is fine, since it's a literal translation of a term that appears in the series. Just understand that "General" in Japanese is used a lot like how English uses the word "Captain". If he was the "Dog Captain", what would that mean? That he's got a team of dogs? That he has a boat? That he's in the army? That he's a superhero called Captain Dog? It can mean a lot of different things. The only question I have ever been asking is whether or not there's any explicit evidence that the Inu no Taishou held any further title or duty beyond "Inu no Taishou". Why isn't "Inu no Taishou" or "Dog General" sufficient? Why the need to invent another title on top of it, and then further assert that Sesshoumaru inherited it? Fast Moon (talk) 01:06, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because Dog General doesn't connote the sort of territorial authority he obviously had. And no one is saying that Sesshōmaru inherited anything.--<font color="#E30022">Suzaku 朱雀 <font color="#F77F00">Maze Castle 01:17, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * But why do we need to invent a completely new title to denote his territorial authority? Why isn't just having a sentence in the Inu no Taishou's bio saying he defended the West sufficient? And the article as it stands does say "After his death, the only possible successor to this role would have been the Inu no Taishō's eldest son, Sesshōmaru." Again, no one is contesting that the Inu no Taishou wielded some undefined measure of authority, what I'm contesting is the need to have a page devoted to a title, position, and rules of inheritance that have no basis in canon. Fast Moon (talk) 02:00, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Inu no Taisho protected the entire province because he believed that those with power had a duty to protect the weak. That's why he gave Tenseiga to Sesshomaru: to teach him that lesson, to make him realize that just because something is weak, it doesn't mean it deserves to die. That's why he protected Rin and let her travel with him. That's why he asked Sesshomaru if be had anything/one to protect. It's also the reason he dueled the panther king one on one: to prevent tons and tons of death and destruction. Also, my JED says that taishou can mean "boss", and then provides a sample sentence about a rooster being the boss of his own dung heap (swear to god). So yeah, I'm not thinking it's always a prestigious or official title. Damaijin (talk) 01:56, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

The article says that the only possible successor to the Inu no Taishō would have been Sesshōmaru, not was. If you recall, I already changed the article to address your earlier concerns, so Sesshōmaru shouldn't even be brought up in this conversation. And whether or not you think that there should be just a mention in the Inu no Taishō's article versus an article of its own is not really up to you, as it appears or has the chance to appear (and therefore to be linked) in many articles, so that's not really up for debate, as its prevalence and linkability really determines it importance and relevance to the site. We could just let the Wind Tunnel be a part of Miroku's article, but it's very important and shows up often enough to be linked to its own article. And so it is with this article; it can stand on its own and can even be expanded in the future, so I wouldn't take it down due to either your perceived lack of the article's importance or its canonicity.--<font color="#E30022">Suzaku 朱雀 <font color="#F77F00">Maze Castle 02:47, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * But the Wind Tunnel has a canon name and is explicitly known to exist. The title and position of "Lord of the West" are purely speculative. Why don't we have a page titled "Guardian of the Sacred Jewel", and saying it's the title of the person who guards the Sacred Jewel and keeps it pure, held by Kikyou, and inherited by Kagome, and possibly held by other people in the past? This would link to a lot of pages, including Kikyou, Kagome, and the Sacred Jewel at the very least. But I would consider the invention of this page pointless. No one's arguing what they did, I'm arguing the need to invent a "job title" for the actions they perform in the series and giving it its own page as though this "job title" actually existed. Also, if we've now gotten to the point of at least conceding that the hypothetical "Lord of the West" title isn't inherited and solely refers to the fact that the Inu no Taishou had some land holdings, where else other than the Inu no Taishou's page would this term need to appear? Fast Moon (talk) 11:04, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't say anything I haven't already said, so I'm going to check out, since this isn't going anywhere, and hasn't been for a long time. As for the "Guardian of the Sacred Jewel", that's actually a good idea. I'll look into possibly creating a page for it, if it really does appear in lots of articles.--<font color="#E30022">Suzaku 朱雀 <font color="#F77F00">Maze Castle 13:11, March 27, 2013 (UTC)